Wednesday, December 9, 2009

Going places



1. Introduction
2. Outline
3. Interventions in Social Problems
4. Efforts of the Government
5. Non Governmental Organizations (NGO’s)
6. Social Movement
7. Power Dynamics
8. Intervention Based on Addressing Power Inequalities
9. Model for Ideal or Better Intervention
10. Intervention through Political Party Framework
11. Programmes and Activities of a Better Intervention
12. Examples of Movements
13. Commitment and qualities of the Stakeholders of the Intervention
14. Institutional Setup and Funding
15. Complexities and Diversities in an Intervention
16. Need of Addressing Larger Structural Issues
17. Scope and Limitations of Working with the Existing Structures
18. Working Position
19. Practical Simulation
20. The Central Stakeholders
21. Methodology
22. Development Communication
23. Divergent Fields
24. Epilogue

About The Writer:

Name: Niranjan Girish Welankar.
Date of birth: 24th November 1984.
Education: Masters in Social Work with Urban and Rural Community Development; Diploma in German; Diploma in Teachers Training for yoga.
Occupation: Currently working with Prayas organisation in Chittorgarh.

The writer strongly wants to work for benefit of the deprived, poor, vulnerable and needy people up to highest possible extent. This obsession is generated out of sensitivity towards social problems, contradictions, inequalities. The writer strongly wants to contribute for betterment of the people at large who are suffering from problems such as poverty, ignorance, displacement, suppression, lack of opportunities for growth and so on.

1. Introduction

This sharing, this writing is dedicated to those who have suffered from violence, hatred, suppression, displacement-development, inequalities and negligence.

In one sense, this is person centered reflection. Through the writing, the writer wants to have better clarity about his effort, to seek guidance from the expert and overall sharing for learning and better understanding. The writer wants to improve his vision, to share his thoughts, to try to improve in his attempt for the desired objective i.e. Work for betterment of the needy people at large. Necessity of this writing comes out of progressive journey towards the desired goal. When one tries to move, one comes across different experiences, different perspectives and impressions, they are about problems as well as solutions. This is obvious as the social conditions are so dynamic, complicated, so one has to check for errors or defects and seek for updates. Such reflective writing and sharing is one good tool to do this. So while writing this, the writer aims to have better clarity, better understanding about his journey towards the desired goal. This is basically a learning exercise. So you are requested to give your valuable inputs, feedback and guidelines for fulfillment of the objective of this writing.

Thanking you.
- Niranjan.
Janurary 15, 2009.

2. Outline

Let's come to basic motive for working for the people. It is out of different social problems and social conditions that this urge has developed. In order to fulfill this, to work for people, it is important to have good understanding of these problems. This is a continuous process. As one lives in the society, one comes across different situations, realities. So the perceptions about problems keep on modifying. Such improvement or maturity comes in understanding. So it becomes necessary to revise our perceptions and concepts.

So let's start with discussing what social problems are. We will then move to their solutions. Here social problems mean social conditions that are harmful for people. They can be anything such as poor education, poverty, violence, exploitation, vulnerability etc. We will start discussing them. Then we will analyze present methods of intervention and try to visualize better ones.

3. Intervention in Social Problems

Firstly, let us make a list of all negative social conditions that are considered as social problems. Such list will give clarity about challenge that is before us. Social problems include larger social conditions such as poverty, ignorance, unemployment, social exploitation of the weaker sections, violence and hatred, social conflicts, lack and low quality of education, less accessible and affordable opportunities and spaces for development, different kinds of vulnerability and so on.

These problems are so inter-connected and intermingled. Though they are larger social problems, there are individual level, family level and community level aspects or attributes. These attributes can complicate and strengthen these problems or even reduce them. E.g. Poverty becomes more severe if the concerned person is a woman or a child. Or the problem of poor education has little to do with the rich people.

These problems may mean differently to different persons. What you perceive may be different than what others perceive. So let's confine our discussion to the effort of working on these problems. So let us not go in depth about roots, reasons, origins of the problems. It may be sufficient here to know that these problems are a continuous result of social inequalities, faults in the social structures and systems. We will start discussing traditional or contemporary solutions or efforts of addressing them. Here we will try to visualize better understanding and better ways regarding these problems. Here we are not going into diagnostic part but are discussing traditional solutions. Major Traditional ways are work of the government, non governmental organizations, work of social movements. We will discuss and analyze each medium or methodology of addressing these problems. Let's begin with the government initiated efforts.


Government is a large machinery, a large comprehensive social system. Government works on social problems by means of different laws, schemes, policies, plans, and protective structures such as police force, legal systems, infrastructure facilities and services. Government is a big system to provide a minimum framework for gratification of basic needs or is supposed to provide. Positive aspects of this way of intervention are as-

* Largest coverage and infrastructure.
* Huge resources and institutional strength.
* Authority of decision making at a very high level.
* Diversity in strategies approaches.

However it has severe limitations too, namely-
• Faulty implementation.
• Rigidity.
• Influence of inter government- political factors and international power factors.
• It is service provider centered and not people centred.

Government is very tricky mechanism of addressing people’s needs. It is like a food packet on an island which is attacked by mice, is out dated and damaged. It has so many structural and procedural problems so that its efficacy is less. Its main reason is that most of the major stakeholders in the government- bureaucrats and leaders- they are not committed to people, but to themselves. So government becomes their private property, almost. In a nut shell, it can be said that government services are like a low cost public train, but its plat form entry ticket is so expensive and troublesome. We will link up this discussion later on when we will discuss power dynamics.

5. Non Governmental Organizations (NGO’s)

NGOs are like secondary sector stakeholders for addressing social problems. They are relatively smaller set ups with limited area of work and geographical coverage. Strengths of this medium-

* Local level, conscious efforts.
* Participatory nature.
* More responsiveness to social conditions.
* More flexible methodology and creativity.
* A mechanism to institutionalize people.

Its weak areas are-

• Problematic or defective implementation.
• Framework of intervention is limited.
• Absolutely unable to address larger social system or structure related issues such as terrorism, market crisis.
• Limited infrastructure, dependence on money providers.

NGOs are alternative and supportive mechanism to government in some cases. They can give some preliminary or temporary solutions. But when it comes to address problems over a huge geographical area, they are inadequate as a medium. Its basic reason is that starting such work in a small area- such as a block- takes a lot of time, so it becomes so difficult to extend it to larger areas such as state or national level. Structurally it is not independent, neither in respect of money, nor human resources. Regardless of these weak areas, it has to be admitted that they work better in their area of work and region. Let's halt this discussion till we discuss power dynamics.

6. Social Movement

Social movement is a more dynamic and vibrant way of bringing larger social change. It has the component of mass agitation persuing a change. It can also be regarded as political mobilization of suppressed weaker groups to seek what is right and just. Strengths of this method of intervention-

* Addresses power inequality.
* People centred.
* Aims at structural change.

Social movements suffer from some weaknesses also.

o Difficult to sustain over a period of time.
o Self sufficiency can be even lesser than NGOs.
o Less likely to have structured set of programs and activities.
o Ideology imposition.

The best thing about movements is that they try to address power inequalities in direct manner, through direct action. Now let's come to closure of this comparative discussion of broad ways of intervention. It is necessary to keep in mind that these 3 broad ways viz. Government, NGOs, social movement have lot of commonalities. There is far more diversity, inter linkages in them than we discussed. Based on this comparative discussion we will try to visualise a better broad way or say, express high way of intervention at larger and higher levels. Let's go into discussion on power dynamics.


This discussion will help us synthesize previously discussed ways for visualising a new better one. It is said- "Women are dying, not because diseases we can not cure, but because, societies are yet to make the decision that their lives are worth saving."

It is a matter of debate to decide how much this analytical statement holds true. But no doubt, there is reasonable meaning in it. The message of that statement is that social problems are more to do with inequalities related to power than to facilities or services. Most of the social problems are rooted in inequalities and suppression. So as long as these inequalities remain, any solution will not be long lasting. Because most of the problems are due to inequalities and so till inequalities remain, they will also remain. So there is need to address these inequalities firstly. All inequalities are so strongly related with power inequality. Hence we need to discuss power dynamics.

Power can be referred to as the ability to influence others, ability to influence decision making. It is related with importance one has in the community. Power dynamics are inter related factors which are related to power. Power can be referred as social money i.e. what money is in economy, power is in the society. Power is exerted or applied through one or more of the following channels-

1. Money
2. Property
3. Social status
4. Education
5. Occupation
6. Knowledge
7. Understanding and insights
8. Physical health
9. Relations with the powerful group or hierarchs, such as leaders, landlords.
10. Social relations and connectivity with the community and society.
11. Numerical strength.

In this context, power inequality can be said as instrumental to social problems. Power inequality indicates lack of equality, lack of balanced social relations. This leads to one's domination over another and so all the stuff of exploitation, suppression, negligence begins. Conversely, if these inequalities are removed and all are brought to one level, there will be hardly any scope for exploitation, suppression as it would be immediately opposed, checked and neutralized. This is nothing but situation of 'haves' and 'haves not' according to Marxian analysis of dialectical materialism. Let's visualise this with an example. Let's take any example of social problem caused by inequality. Let's take a case of a doctor demanding money from a poor woman for checking up her. As long as that woman is socially less powerful and the doctor is more powerful, he can take the money. But if both become equally powerful, he would not be able to take the money easily. This theme of thinking indicates the need to work on power inequalities rather than on facilities or services. We will discuss this line of thinking and try to analyze it, to visualize better ways emerging out of it.

8. Intervention Based On Addressing Inequalities

If we want to create equality, a kind of balance, there are two basic perspectives regarding it. Let's take the case of two buckets, one is full and another is empty. How can we obtain equality? Either by shifting half of the water in the first bucket into the second or by producing water and thereby filling the empty bucket.

Socially, the second perspective is more practical and positive. Because equality does not or should not mean bringing any one down, so that the other can rise. Rather it should mean constructive and positive uplifting of the less powerful. So this way we can think and try to find methods of intervention which would establish power equality.

Let's now focus on interventions which would establish power balance. In order to uplift the power of the less powerful, we need to work on channels or media through which power is exerted or expressed. We had listed such 11 channels. Let's discuss them in brief. Money, land, social status, education and health, these five are first such channels through which power is exerted. We need to work on these in order to improve power exerted through them. This sounds much closer to work of government or NGOs related to education, land issues, health, income generation and social reforms.

Such intervention is supposed to empower weaker groups by giving them opportunities and spaces to participate, training to develop capacity so they can express their potential in each area. By work similar to government and NGO efforts, it means that these efforts are also likely to have similar limitations. These will be long term efforts. Can there be other mechanism, other innovative ways that can give similar results in terms of power balance in relatively short period?

Before looking for such innovative ways, let's think of other power related interventions, interventions based on other channels through which power is manifested. These channels are understanding and insights, knowledge, relations with the powerful groups, connectivity with the community, numerical strength. Let's discuss on interventions based on these. Understanding, insights and knowledge, progress in these areas requires time, no doubt. But there are some innovative ways which fasten this process. Relations with the powerful group are a tricky way, because how would it be logical to align with powerful if we want to create power separately. Also, powerful group is often exploitative, so how to relate with them? Still this can be positively taken up as relations with powerful factors such as movements, network of NGOs, so that association may enhance the power strength of the less powerful and help them to balance themselves. Let's take the remaining two channels, namely numerical strength and connectivity with the community.

With the help of positive social adjustments, level of power expressed through them can be enhanced. If a marginal community is so well mixed up with the rest of the communities in that locality, it would not have any vulnerability due to its low number. Similarly connectivity with the community can be enhanced with positive communication and efforts of community organization. It is again an effort similar to NGO work of construction, would require application of human skills over a period of time. Just we have mentioned some innovative efforts that may be useful to enhance power levels in relatively short time. Let's now focus our discussion thereon.

Let's take the example of Jansunwai. Is not Jansunwai an innovative mechanism which equalises power inequalities, equate weaker groups with the hierarchy? It can be elaborated as follows. Jansunwai can be said as a systematic, organised effort of empowering weaker, suppressed groups through social audit. In a Jansunwai, weaker groups such as tribal women are empowered or enabled to speak up with government officers from the same level, they can dominate officers in terms of power. When during the session of Jansunwai, a tribal woman argues, expresses her frustration, anger about the government officers, it is an empowering and equalising process, is not it? As it breaks power barriers in an innovative manner. So those witnessing it also feel the breaking up of power barriers, are made to think, to know, to relate. This is the carry home message of a Jansunwai. Is not it a good stimulus to enhance knowledge, understanding, Insights and social ties, connectivity with the community? Thus it is an effective way to change power structure, to empower the weaker groups.

Let’s sum up what we have discussed so far regarding power. We thought on the line that power inequality is a key reason of social problems, so working on it is necessary. Then we thought on working on channels through which power is exercised. Now onwards we will discuss on comprehensive interventions based on power equality.

9. Model for Ideal or Better Intervention

What would be qualities of ideal or better model of intervention?
1. It would cover maximum social issues, would be effective for them.
2. It would have country wide spread over.
3. It would lead to sustainable structural changes.
4. It would be affordable, accessible to all.

These are major qualities. We will now discuss to visualize such a model. Here we would not distinguish intervention as government effort, NGO effort, social movement etc. We keep in mind that it has to have positive aspects of all these methods. When we talk about an innovative method, we need to think practically, to simulate in field situation. In order to have such methodology, that it can be implemented across the nation, one has to seek for a different perspective or approach.

It can be something like actually working in a few areas and then devoting time to spread this methodology in remaining areas. If we are to work at high, national level, we have to have mass level, national communication. Then only we can think of making our work that extensive. Naturally, it puts several restrictions on our work; it can not be in depth. It is in one sense like radio waves. If the waves are to reach larger areas, they have to be short waves, means less depth to voice, whereas where deep, enriched voice is required, FM stations are used, but they have so less coverage area. So we have to balance of intensity and extensiveness. So model of actual working at 4 places and communicating it, informing it to 96 areas is useful. If the work being done is so exciting, so innovative and effective, it is easy to reach to other people through all means except not actually doing it. Whenever something exciting and innovative happens; its impacts are manifold. Such things are useful to make more intensive impacts also. So a kind of social action based model is a good option.

Let's take the example of contribution of revolutionaries in freedom struggle, was not it more effective in some cases than institutional efforts ? One demonstration of genuine and innovative work is a great stimulus. Here we are talking about interventions based on power equality. Power comes from thinking, relating, breaking barriers, knowing.. All these get strengthened if they have dynamic, innovative stimulus such as a mass rally, a Jansunwai, a dharna. Such method is sustainable also, as involvement of outsiders is less. Let's again take a look at method of actual working, by a government body or an NGO.

The building block processes in work are so time consuming- rapport building, need identification, study, implementation, monitoring and replication etc. As these processes are so slow, time consuming, it is almost impossible to actually reach to nation wide geographical area. So the strategy of working at four places and communicating that work to entire country sounds more practical. When we talk about power equality and working with the social structure, we have to think on social movement model.

Let's take the example of local level pressure groups or local movement. Suppose an atrocity occurs in the area of work of a pressure group. Then what the group is supposed to do? To investigate, to give social protection to the vulnerable sections, to pursue and follow up with the official procedures, to study entire case, to collect witnesses, to prepare witnesses and victim to speak up, to raise this issue in media. To be able to do all this, that group has to be working in that area for at least a year; in order that it has to have good acquaintance, identity, communication in that area.

Such pressure group need not have its own program or scheme such as NGO has. So it requires less investment as compared to NGO. Members of that group need not be even full time workers. What we tried to see is the reactive or post facto role of such group. Proactive role of such group would be to work as watch dog, to do awareness activities- may be through innovative street plays, Jansunwai, media events, to strengthen intra community relations, to identify vulnerability and so on. This kind of methodology has positive attributes such as- it is open ended, less rigid, less demanding and binding for the members, local level, less consuming. But it has weaknesses also. - If the members are not full timer workers, their commitment could be low, less structural work, intervention may not be well organised etc.

Regardless of these and other weaknesses, this set up has many qualities that our ideal model of intervention must have. It will be matter of practice, application to see how much effective it becomes as an agent of change. Such local level group must be related with national level group or network. It is really difficult to set limit of going into deep for extended replication, as many processes need deep work, like community organisation for strengthening social relations so as to empower the community, to raise power level in this channel. Despite these limitations, local pressure groups seem to present one option for ideal intervention that can be extended to entire nation through presentation and communication. This approach is like teacher's role; teacher does 4 exercises and helps students do 100 exercises. Now we will discuss issue by issue regarding this ideal model of intervention.


Now we are discussing different issues related to better ways of intervention. Let's begin our discussion by taking up the issue of role played by political parties to address social problems. Partly it coincides with the role of government. Political party can provide resources and mass base to leaders. So this framework, this asset can be positively used for doing people's work. E.g. Effective utilization of funds as member of assembly. Political framework can also be used to reach to more number of people, so to increase extent of work. At the same time, there are some negatives aspects also of political party framework. As we have discussed, social problems are related to establishing power equality, reducing power inequalities. Contrary to this, in most cases, members of political parties are powerful leaders, already power haves. So how these people can be effective to empower disempowered groups? Today most of the parties favour already powerful, affluent leaders like landlords, so how power inequality can be reduced? In fact there are ample reasons to say that political parties increase power inequality, as they go with the existing power distribution (except Bahujan Samajwadi party up to an extent). With the help of similie, it can be said that using political parties for power equality is like working in English bureaucracy to free India. It is itself contradictory up to certain extent. Party system is rigid and defensive. It is likely to deal with lot of un necessary, non relevant ideology and image related stuff.

Hence there are severe difficulties to use political party system for bringing up equality and for working out social problems. Can there still be some method to use political party system? Can party system be made non ideological and egalitarian? Let's think of it. There can be ways to make a system more egalitarian and transparent. Examples are open office functioning system, collective open door functions. There are participatory methods of group building, leadership building, ways like social audit, public hearing to improve transparency and accountability. They can be applied in party framework also. But it all depends on the willingness and commitment of the party leaders.

There is one more way in which political system can be used. It can be described as follows. What intervention through party means is to work as political leaders, to work by being peoples representatives. It is direct party intervention. It is more time, energy and money consuming. So instead of this we can focus on other levels of political participation, apart from leadership. They are voting, pressure groups, informal non political associations. Best intervention would not be done by only working with leadership. Rather, a balanced intervention which works with all levels in political participation would be more effective. This can further described as follows.

Let's take the example of an institute working for awareness about political participation. If we can work for increasing awareness about political role of people, if we can create ice breaking related to that, then would not that be a good option? If peoples participation at all levels increase, i.e. Voting increases, party membership increases, good number of good people come into politics for peoples cause, would not that be good intervention? To stand up and contest elections is a direct approach, less sufficient, as efficacy depends on all levels and not at one level with one person, less effective, less sustainable and more consuming. Whereas non direct political intervention such as training or awareness related work can be more effective, extensive, less consuming and more sustainable. So here are some ways in which effective political intervention can be done.

11. Programs and Activities of a Better Intervention

We are discussing important issues in the context of a better intervention. Programs and activities mean structured course of action of the intervention. It can be implementation of a project, regular meetings, and case- basis intervention. What should be the nature and scope of programs of an intervention that we wish to be so extensive and effective?

We now try to answer this question with the help of some alternatives. Let's again come to the functioning framework of a pressure group or local level small action group. It does not have structured set of activities but runs by regular contacts and awareness and monitoring related activities. It does not go beyond facilitation of people’s organisation, participation into social issues. As its functioning is partly open ended, its members need not be full timers, they can earn elsewhere. It facilitates institutionalization by working in collaboration with government and other organisations.

Such kind of work may sound so general or superficial, but it is good for participation of extremely deprived groups. One thing about Gandhiji can be recalled. He did not use artillery, did not establish giant empire such as Ambani's. What he did was that he used practical methods which the average person could adopt and afford, so he could build such strength and width to his work. It seems that such kind of open structured intervention is good to seek participation by extremely deprived groups such as nomadic tribes or neglected sections such as Kashmiri people or the khasi tribe in Meghalaya. As the process gets complicated, it becomes difficult for extension and the more complicated it is, the less the possibility that the extremely deprived groups would control it. Then can such method be a good model for extensive replication? At least it is good option for local level, as it is less consuming. Of course such work needs lot of support from state and national level....

But how about the idea of establishing such pressure groups and making a national network of them ? This can be used with the technique of 4 place implementation and 96 place communication approach. Of course, such groups, networks are existent today. We will now discuss about them.

12. Examples of Movements

Here we will discuss briefly about movements which are working extensively across the nation. Here we will try to understand their methodology, strengths and weaknesses for enhancing our clarity for a better option that we seek. We will also do a bit analysis of these. Let's take the case of Narmada Bachao Andolan. Actually it is not a national one, but significantly extensive. It is an issue based movement; its objective is to give justice to the displaced people, who are displaced by Narmada water and the Sardar Sarovar dam. Over around 25 years it has advocating this issue. Still its work is going on; it is far from achieving the desired output. It has been strongly opposing the government. From development perspective, this movement is a battle between development and displacement to avoid displacement of the marginalised tribal communities that reside by the river Narmada. According to NBA, the government is claiming development of already rich communities (Gujrati land) at the cost of the poor tribal and not giving them sufficient compensation. According to the government sources, NBA is mere making issue of small displacement and the benefits of the Sardar Sarovar Project clearly outweigh the losses.

When any such big issue is concerned, it is safe to assume that both the parties have some meaning in their saying. However it is exactly what is so difficult to objectively state. We will look at this movement with an attempt of stakeholder analysis. Ideologically who are forefathers of this movement, what are their funding sources and supporters? Then we come to know that ideologically this group is leftist and many of their supporters are foreigners. Let's have another question in mind. If this movement is so strong, it has got so able leadership and strength, why not has it been successful? Would not that indicate a thin possibility that the owners of this movement do not want it to achieve its goals because then they would be in danger of loosing livelihood? Or perhaps due to the fact, that this issue is not entirely genuine or rational as claimed by the movement.

Any way, we need to understand different dynamics with which a movement is built and it goes on. This continuous movement, a conflict between two parties makes us think of some alternatives. We need to discover more and more channels and express ways of sustainable development that would be inclusive; they will be accessible and affordable to all with minimal displacement of any human or environmental stakeholder. Also we need to be very careful about the true objectives and mission of a movement as there are chances that a movement my arise for political interests of a few.

Let's come to another group of movements- local action groups or pressure groups. In many cases, do not we find that work scope of such groups is limited to taking action on certain cases of atrocities, injustice and not beyond that? Not beyond means not towards proactive preparedness and extension in coverage. So one picture of such groups is like a local lobby to fight on small issues; that is to say, in one way, such groups appear to be struck in these activities only. Such activities are quite important and as long as exploitation and injustice continue, they must be done.

But what about proactive; positive and constructive work to eradicate power inequality? How can it be done, through which methodology? We can think of it here. This is the key factor. Lot of thinkers and revolutionaries have thought and worked on it. Establishing equality positively that is to say, without looking up on any one dominantly, involves two aspects as discussed earlier.

One aspect is to progress in the channels through which power is expressed. Second is to establish equality by equal treatment, by unanimous treatment, by removing physical discrimination, by eliminating negative activities and by applying positive activities such as sitting together on one level instead by men sitting on chair and women on floor. Practical concepts or behavioural aspects can be best adopted by practice and not by words.

So equality can be established by such positive actions of giving importance, of facilitating to take decision and not obstructing the way. Another issues come regarding this, can be discussed. If we are taking a meeting with some government officials and women are also there. So how can we make the government officials sit with women on one level? Moreover, would not that make them alienated from us, their attitude towards us would not be affected, if we force them. Here we come across one basic conflict or resistance. It is said that any kind of development has presence of equal displacement factors too, like when a vehicle goes so long, displacement takes in form of fatigue of the driver, consumption of fuel, friction of the tiers. Consider any modern 'development' like construction of cement jungles, where thousands of trees and water reservoirs are destructed. This does warn us of the strong need of reducing displacement factors that obstruct any kind of development. Unless we have set right action plan of positively and proactively adjusting and overcoming such small or large displacement, our any attempt for change or development would not be sustainable.. So, the issue is, how can we introduce and make habitual the small positive activities or actions to imply equality. One thing is for sure, any kind of development does not occur without some or minimum displacement factors or negative impacts...

It is said that any kind of development has many potential hazards and development process has stages of equilibrium and disequilibrium. This discussion tells us the need to plan such small steps, small practice level obstacles and course of the action. Let's come back to our example of field situation. If we are in the situation of a meeting of government officials and women and we want all to sit on one level, we need preparation for that, namely-

1. By anticipating number of participants, to arrange for sufficient number of chair, so no one feels offended.
2. to try to prepare the official staff in advance by stating the need for sitting together and explaining its benefits to the programme.

Such homework would facilitate this step. One would need to reset focus on positive aspects involved in such type of situation. This thing tells us that we would be required to be prepared and ready with lot of homework for facing all these situations.

This planning can be done with the help of anticipation, simulation and visualization. If we are prepared proactively with clarity of how to respond to each possible situation, efficacy of such actions can be enhanced and such more steps would help establish equality. Apart from such behavioural tools, mechanisms such as Jansunwai are also important in this direction and so be used by local action groups. Whatsoever is the method or procedure, we would require lot of planning, planning like that for moon mission; which was completed in four years and it gave out steps and guidelines for each month, week, day, hour and minute of about 14 years for entire mission workforce. Such kind of intense work is required. Then only all barriers and obstructions in the process would be worked up on and the way would be ready, otherwise it would be imbalanced like a vehicle showing speedometre high but fuel level low. Preparing each stakeholder for the process, taking proper care of each critical factor, would not that help for increasing quality and sustainability of the intervention? Let's stop this discussion here where we discussed working of movements, tried to visualize how they function, how that can be made a good model for extension. We then also discussed some steps to establish power equality.

13. Commitment and qualities of the Stakeholders of the Intervention

We are discussing important issues regarding any intervention. Our aim is to obtain clarity about a better method of intervention. Commitment means intensity of desire and qualities means abilities, availability of built assets to address diverse situations, to perform better in them. Every model of intervention has to work up on commitment and qualities of its stakeholders. Here we now try to find ways to ensure high commitment and qualities on the part of stakeholders of our ideal or better intervention.

Commitment of an activist is as important as a speed of a vehicle for its travel is. Commitment indicates the "driven" person. How to make all colleagues or partners highly committed? There are ways in which commitment is formed, factors in it can be understood and analyzed. For example, negative social experiences, vicarious sufferings, pains, childhood impressions in form of reading, exposure to social evils can be reasons or channels for commitment towards social cause.

If it is less, it can be channelised with the help of these channels. Commitment is less means it has some barriers or obstructions which can be specifically identified and slowly worked out. However it is important to note that there are n number of ways in which a person can think, so not all ways are applicable to all. But still, barriers can be removed. May be the techniques would apply differently. Like confrontation with sufferings, interactions with deprived group would help to some persons, some would increase commitment after interactions with the field expert or veteran activists. What we can say is that there are such ways and we need to use them. What necessary is addressing and confronting the obstructions in a straight line, directly.

Let's come to the issue of quality and capacity building of stakeholders. Quality expectations and quality of available workforce may vary, may have large difference. It is due to many reasons. Basically, quality has a lot to do with market linkages. A qualified person would naturally seek for better options, so would go towards such positions. So it is difficult that such persons come to the intervention unless the intervention is very unique and special like Gandhiji's satyagraha during the freedom fight. This means that our intervention model has to work with available qualified persons that it can afford. So it becomes important to find ways in which available workforce can be best utilized and side by side its qualities can be enhanced. Best utilization of available quality can be obtained through proper management of work requirements, clearly defined roles, distribution of responsibilities, avoiding unnecessary burden, open channels of communication for support and monitoring, positive strokes etc. Qualities can be enhanced and updated by giving opportunities and spaces for taking more responsibilities, doing mistakes, with prior guidance and encouragement. Such responsibilities should be moderately difficult so that the persons would not find it too difficult to catch up, to stretch oneself.

As discussed earlier, there are ways or steps in which commitment can be channelized. It is basically application of different view points towards the same thing. How to look at extremely negative things so positively is a skill and with its help, positive commitment or motivation can be channelized. Example of such attitude difference is -negative reaction after poor performance in examination or proactive response to a failure, so as not only to come out of it, but to go beyond it, to higher levels.

We are consistently talking about power equality. So it is obvious that any kind of intervention would not succeed without significant number of deprived people participating in it, involved in it.

A point has to be made regarding qualities of persons from the extremely deprived communities. Qualities are developed, capacity is expressed only when it gets conducive environment and opportunities ! The extremely deprived groups have hardly got it so far, naturally they may need more time and opportunities to perform at expected higher levels. Here We keep one important note in our mind. We have to ensure that our better model of intervention has full involvement and participation of all deprived groups such as nomadic tribes, weaker marginalised groups, weaker and neglected groups from the North East, Jammu and Kashmir and the intervention effort as a whole is sensitive to them and all their requirements are properly and collectively taken care of. Now here we halt our discussion regarding this topic and move to next one.

14. Funding and Institutional Setup

The most important aspects of any social activity are aspects related to human and environmental concerns and needs than any artificial needs or decoration, show. Discussion on funding and institutional set up can not be done without talking about methodology and vision, mission of that intervention. As we have discussed earlier, our model intervention has to be replicable and easy to spread over every where, also conducive to participation by all weaker groups. Hence funding and institutional set up can not be too great. So it is safe to think that we would be required to work in limited funds and institutional set up.

It points towards specific, narrow focus of work with a kind of flexibility like other livelihoods and associations. This also expresses the need for innovative planning and design of the intervention, so as to have pin- pointed activities and not indulging in less relevant activities. Today many organisations are busy in numerical target oriented work and so exploiting their workforce, they are insecure about their funds. So in such situation, focused and open framework of activities can be a good, practical option. Reasonable flexibility would also be useful to keep motivation and performance levels high.

15. Complexities and Diversities in an Intervention

Here we are to discuss complexities and difficulties involved in the intervention. The intervention we are trying to visualize is like a very fine picture that is drawn across several kilometres at a stretch. Or more simply, it is like a very complicated team work where everyone thinks differently and looks at everything differently. So then, how would the focused, integrated effort would take place? That's what we are now trying to work out.

Every one has so much of diversity, so permutation and combination of these diverse entities would be so poly diverse and multi faceted. When, how, which, where, why and what you think is different than myself. A lot of distinction exists between any human expressions. So it is necessary that we find some integrated mechanisms to limit the differentiation and have consistent framework. Actually it is a big exercise. Every one of us does not look at any one thing entirely similarly. So how would the central processes of planning, decision making, responsibility sharing, and implementing take place and how much of time would they take? What we can look up on for support regarding this is the basic needs, drives and characteristics of persons.

Whatsoever be the caste, class, nature, physical, political configuration of the travellers, they all travel by train and be with that framework, that structure. Why? Because that structure has got spaces for each of them that they desire. So if we can construct such kind of inclusive framework with plenty of spaces and gains, why not people would be on board with us? Though there is a lot of diversity across different communities, there are basic common attributes also- like basic needs, similar problems. We need to focus on such practical and acceptable terms only. We can never compromise for basic urges, interests and needs. So we have to create such environment. Innovativeness and dynamic nature can help to attract and withhold people. However all this debate is so hypothetical. We will try to visualize a practical model based on it in next phases of the discussion. Still lot of questions remains clueless. Our intervention would be so focused, objective oriented, so how can it be made inclusive of all these aspects, this qualities? It would require Herculean skill to make the best adjustment with this poli-fold human configuration. It requires greatest analytical, social, relational, intellectual skills to arrange everything, each factor in such a way that the best output is delivered. It is like best utilization of players in a match where every team player plays his or her role as best as he or she can, whatever it may be. Throughout this discussion, though it is very much conceptual, we constantly feel that scope of our intervention is going higher than practically feasible levels. We stop here discussion on this topic and link it later on with other related topic.
16. Need of Addressing Larger Structural Issues

Here we are going to discuss ways in which our intervention can influence social structures and structural issues. Let's take the example of intervention related to child labour. Many organisations address this social evil by the interventions based on case based work, through awareness programs or campaigns. Are these really effective ways? Particularly; if the phenomenon of child labour is likely to be rooted in market structure and social power structure? Would not providing so much of alternative constructive employment options to the poorest of poor help reduce child labour? Whatever the vision of development is, it is said that lack of development is by and large a political process rather than a process of facility fulfillment. Lack of development is more related to exploitation, suppression, whatever may be manner of its expression, than to distribution of facilities. Conversely, this means that by merely providing facilities, fulfilling needs, problems would not be solved sufficiently sustainably.

This reinforces the need to work with the social structures, social systems such as market economy, social conflicts and issues such as terrorism, insurgency, political system i.e. Government, virus of violence. Then only we would be able to say that yes, our intervention is effective on these grounds also. How to make it so? From the perspective of equality, it follows that wherever any negative thing takes place, it should be opposed by an equal and opposite force, so the equilibrium or balance would not be lost. So it directs towards building up a great force, a great strength that can oppose any structural factor if the need be. Such strength would come firstly from its support base, number of people that are together, then by its means, methodology, character of its stakeholders. Let's talk about a great episode of history that was called Gandhiji.

Gandhiji was the unique wizard who has given us many express highways regarding almost all our concerns, right from power equality to sustainable, indigenous and 'true' development. That magician build up so much of strength that he could forge a great battle against one of the strongest structure in the world as well as against many small structures. That kind of thing we should aim at. If that kind of, that level of collective support and unity is obtained to a cause, be it satyagraha or lawful agitation against terrorism or child labour or exploitative foreign laws that threaten our sovereignity, would not that be effective ? At least effective than the spoon feeding and pain killer (those may be intended to kill the pain and not the problem) efforts.

17. Scope and Limitations of Working with the Existing Structures

Now we are to check for suitability of working in the current social structures, with current methods. What attributes have we discussed so far, there are interventions which have these attributes, at least some of them.

Through our better model of intervention, what we are trying to envision is so dynamic, innovative and new, but still there remains some relevance of working with the existing set ups. This can be explained as follows. What our intervention would try to do is to establish entirely new manners, it is like some champion comes to play into a game and s/he changes the method in which the game is played. In game such as cricket, there have been players who have changed the way in which the game was played before they come.

That kind of course of action our intervention is supposed to do. But such kind of superb or extraordinary work is not possible all of a sudden. So there exists need to do ordinary work before going for the extraordinary work. Special work is always so demanding and in order to fulfill that, one has to become enough equipped firstly. That much is the scope and limitation of working with the existing structure. It has a lot of importance as a launch pad, as a plat form, a learning tool a way to understand and analyze social dynamics and their inter linkages, but not much beyond that. Most of the existing efforts are limited in one sense that a high level of strength can not be generated out of them. Qualititative strength is there for sure, but it is not that extensive and quantified so as to fulfill the requirement in totality. Such current efforts by and large would not be able to meet the requirements of entire nation or entire society including all groups and all problems. Hence going beyond that circumference is must, but for that, it is very necessary to reach the circumference. Gandhiji's work gives guidelines even here. He started off as an activist advocate and became a mass leader with respect to time. So our better intervention can be established out of current structures or can work as those in the beginning. But sooner or later it has to take off and reach the distances.

This kind of thinking may sound extremist, ignorant of realities, frustrated with harsh difficulties, but is not it that extraordinary efforts are necessary for extraordinary goals. If objectives are that different, that high, then the methodology also has to follow that direction. There is ample possibility that this perception might be non realistic or fantasy oriented. But if we visualise higher outputs, we have to try to play the game differently. Hence our methodology, techniques should be that effective and innovative like Jansunwai, mass satyagraha, The Long march of Mao, social action like movement for open office collective and witnessed functioning of bureaucracy etc. Innovative efforts have ability to reach to more people than ordinary ones.

This all can be expressed more simply. If we want to reach to population of over one billion, we have to be in direct communication with those many people. Any communication is based on unconditional positive strokes, creativity in approach, consistency of medium and receiver orientedness and mutuality. If those can be applied in communication with those many people, a great strength can be certainly constructed, say after a span of 30 years. Let's come back to our main flow of the discussion. One by one we have discussed important issues regarding any intervention. Let's take up another such issue.

18. Working Position

Here we will discuss positions or locations of members of the intervention. Members of our intervention; at what positions; they should work? Positions means social status, levels in terms of power. Are they supposed to be in powerful positions such as collector, university professor, chief inspector? As discussed earlier, higher power positions can not work better as they distance themselves from the common person. A Position at a powerful post does give some strength, but it is not sustainable and worthy for looking at. It again implies equality by force which is contradictory in itself. Hierarchy dominance is the social history, higher social positions or upper castes dominance; can that be any good option? Certainly not.

Again Gandhiji comes to help. His life suggests that if strength of such great number of people is concentrated, it is superior, higher than any politically powerful position or structure. So why then focusing on gaining higher position? The focus then should be on being in a position to have maximum spaces and opportunities to facilitate equal power distribution and concentration. This is possible only when we live among the people without making any kind or form of inequality and hierarchy.

We can discuss one more point here. Our discussion questions us that is there real need for one person or one group to become so powerful or socially so strong, or is there need of establishing better structural linkages among the marginalized people to become collectively strong? What should be the residing place of the power and its density, distribution? Clearly, it should rest with the people, equally distributed. Actually this discussion does point out that there is no need to create a power house or build up an artificial strength but to create better linkages of sharing this power.

Let's take the example of a water tank. Water is concentrated in it. If we want to use that, there is no need to construct another tank superior to it, but just provide ways or channels so that that water can be shared largely. At once water would equally distribute itself that is common sense, common science. Of course, this hypothesis can not be easily related with the harsh realities. We halt our discussion here and move towards more practical and reality oriented thinking and planning.

19. Practical Simulation

After a lot of hypothetical discussion, now let's come to ground reality and try to simulate how we are practically trying to do all this. Let's begin with the planning part. Who are supposed to do planning for this ? Its possible answer can be those who are committed alike and believe strongly in this kind of method for working with the people. No ideological barriers would restrict joining this effort. Even the less committed can also come, in fact all those who are interested can come. Only thing is that they need to have sensitivity. For our convenience, we here assume that there is one group of activist people; it has been working for some time. We simulate its conversion into our desired intervention and the latter course of action.

Planning requires holistic thinking, taking decisions about so many things like vision, mission, time specific progress, methodology, long term and short term objectives, stakeholders etc. So such planning would require lot of time and space, so as to all issues are discussed and common line of thinking is established. The owners of the better intervention would need lot of anticipation and preparation for the planning. Many things such as setting up design of the intervention, methodology, future journey would need to be given a thought. All this requires lot of time. But arriving at collective common line of decision is necessary so that the group becomes cohesive and equally strong. As many people would be involved, the planning would go through a lot of phases of criticization, arguments and even small conflicts. But if the ideas are so genuine and practical, they would succeed in getting settled in the minds of the planners, sooner or later.

Sharing of different thoughts, insights, and attitudes is very crucial as positively it helps to fill up many gaps. I can see only limited things but you can see what I can not, so our discussion becomes vital. In fact, more the diversity, differences, more the holistic the system becomes, if the diversity is processed and responded positively. The planning should be followed by implementation. Whatever structure, decisions, methodology has been decided, following them would indicate a good beginning. As discussed before, if the activists or central stakeholders of our better intervention have prepared themselves, have equipped themselves to complete journey to reach the circumference of current methods, they can take up a good beginning. Once all things are clearly, explicitly decided and settled, there is not many problems in following them, provided all possible obstacles, resistances are given a thought and proactive response has been ready and agreed up on. It is like a kind of social, human programming and involves designing social, human and practical algorithm, so our policy is ready to decide what to do even 'whatsoever' happens. That should be the level of planning, visualization, simulation and anticipation.

20. The Central Stakeholders

For any intervention, its stakeholders and economic resources are categorically important issues. The stakeholders of the model that we try to visualize should be common people. Neither should we expect too many qualities nor too much commitment, but common people who have strengths and weaknesses. Our method and structure should be such that it can work even with common people, like Gandhian methods. If we want wide coverage and mass participation, we should not insist on in depth participation or involvement. If the responsibilities, activities are shared and distributed, it is certainly possible that the sea of common people can also be made itself without depending on expert persons or intellectuals.

But the stakeholders do have the value of equality and commitment. And our mechanism, functions should be such that these attitudes are learned and expressed. It really depends a lot on our methods, techniques, strategies and procedures to create an innovative environment where these things are strengthened and accelerated. If we can do it, we would not need to spend on it separately.

Let's take up the issue of economic resources. We have earlier talked that method of operation of our model can be flexible and not too closed. So we can have many options for economic resources. Our stakeholders can be individual occupants who earn money by their individual occupation, there may be activist groups who work on certain projects to run their machinery, such as local groups who work on CRI projects or government supported programs. Some may be paid by the formal set up of our model. There can be ways to obtain money. But we should have minimum clarity about what the money means to us. It is said that obtaining money is not a problem, but doing that work which deserves economic support, is difficult. Money is something, certainly not everything. Money is a material factor. If we take care of human factors, we need not worry about money requirements, it would come gradually. Still there are innovative ways and techniques in which money can be used, recycled and increased; we need not go into that detail.


Methodology is certainly a very important point to be discussed. Before talking about methodology, let's talk about our ultimate objectives. What they are? Let's recall- power equality, everyone gets opportunity and support for ones development and well being. Isn't it? What is meant by the word development? Let's discuss our vision of development. Development can be defined as the comprehensive process of capacity building, capacity expression that is inclusive, participatory, accessible and affordable to all, socially egalitarian and environmentally sustainable and every stakeholder should share its fruits. Such should be development; it can not be mere construction of swallowed cities. It is necessary to have minimum clarity...

It is necessary to have minimum clarity about the concept of this kind of development. Why? Because earlier or traditional development has proved so faulty, it has led to several problems such as increase in social inequalities and disparities, exploitation, social tensions and violence, environmental hazards. So we need to reset our vision of development. Here again the wizard called Gandhiji comes to rescue from this hazard. Gandhiji has given us many ways and guidelines regarding almost all our concerns, but we have not shown full faith in him nor we have gone much distances on that path way. Right from democratic decentralization of Panchayat Raj to small scale industries such as Khadi he has equipped us to fulfill our needs. But we have been more interested in our greeds. And he has warned us that environmental resources are not sufficient to fulfill greeds of a few.

That is to say, Gandhiji has given us ways and ways for sustainable, holistic, integrated, environment inclusive, individualized, practical, and participatory and 'true' development, we need not scatter for a moment, we have so great guidelines. What we need is to give that path in fact, that express highway a try. In short, Gandhian vision of development stresses on certain indigenous attitudes and techniques such as simple lifestyle, need based activities, use of locally available technology, local skills and knowledge, equal distribution of power and decision making. So our better model of intervention can follow this vision and mission.

Now we can talk about our methodology to achieve it, our ways of its application, or our interpretation of this vision in terms of practice. We have said that power is central to our intervention. One reason of it is that many social factors do not have ability to listen, to understand. So they need use of power sometimes. Hence our methodology would be power centred and action oriented. Formal ways like telling, written communication, informing and requesting may not always be useful so use of action based work becomes necessary. So our model can follow the action based methodology, use of techniques such as demonstrations, bandh, strikes, public protests, dramatic mobilizations. Our techniques should be sharp and strong to destroy power perceptions and give the message of equality, e.g. Gherao of women to the liquor shop owners and their license givers, huge demonstrations before parliament for underlining the blunder of signing international pacts. Our model can also stress on extension activities related to political participation and awareness. Also yoga teaching can be integral deliverable as yoga is one good, effective, affordable and accessible tool of capacity building. Also stress can be given on innovative techniques of sustainable and true development. Many similar ways can come up as we go ahead.

Our goal is so high; our field is so vast, that we can not decide any thing as complete and final. Every performance is fresh, new, so our mind has to be open for experiments and receptive to failures. Our model should not be limited to certain methods, but it should have dynamic thinking and readiness for experiments.


Let's come to another aspect of our model. We have said that we would actually perform in the field at 4 locations and would spread that technique to remaining 96 places. So there is a need to think about development communication methodology. Development communication simply means the process of communicating development to people. Here it means as our efforts to replicate this course of actions country wide. In 4 places we would be using direct intervention for change. But in other 96 places, we want change through communication.

Any behavioural change comes through ABC sequence. A indicates attitudinal, B indicates behavioural and C indicates cognitive change. This is the process through which any change in behaviour takes place. Any change requires lot of ice breaking and preparation on the attitudinal and cognitive aspects. Here ultimately we look for carry home message as internalization of our model of intervention or positive attributes in it. We so would look for broadcast of our work. If we want to reach to so high number of people, we have to develope n number of channels, media, and diverse delivery systems so that this message can be reached to all, to every subsection in the society.

Communication is strengthened by genuine positive strokes and innovative content and creative use of media. Hence our methodology should have dynamic, special components that would reach to all. We need not depend on existing techniques and tools, but should go for inventing new methods, new styles. Extensive Use of media such as one to one communication, print media, internet, radio, television, magazines would be required. Some would argue, should we focus on actual work or its publicity ? Our focus should be balanced. If we are clear, why we want this kind of propaganda, then we should not worry. We would need to provide utmost care for right individualization of this communication for every individual person, community, place, culture, socio- political situation.

We should translate our message as per situation, particularly while communicating special groups or situations such as terrorist hit Kashmiri people or insurgent groups in Assam who are in search of separate identity. Our entire effort should be so genuine, so focused that it could appeal to even the least interested. There are lots of challenges in this communication based work. We can discuss them briefly. If we look at major media agencies in our nation, we come to know that most of them are owned by foreign people or highly powerful bourgeois groups..

So would that media be very cooperative to us? Certainly not. It would be always better if we assume lot of difficulties and obstructions in our way, because it would prepare us for facing un foreseen challenges. It is a certainty that there would come up lot of forces that would wish to oppose us, to crush us. Its impact on us, our work, would be decided by our strength, preparedness, and approaches to face it. Often power is exerted when there is dependence and conditionality.

If we arrange and design our work such that it is neither dependent on any one group, we are never in position to accept and work within any party's conditions, then we can work as we wish, no factor can restrict or affect us. If our effort has so high strength, then we can overcome all obstructions sooner or later. So let there be any opposition, resistances, barriers, our work can bridge them. In fact, the truth that we are supposed to face plenty of obstructions is a very positive thing. It would only highlight greatness of our efforts.

We would be required to construct our own alternatives, systems to overcome dependence. All these things should be given detail thought. As there are certain channels through which power gets manifest, there are channels with which relations are built and strengthened. So we would need to proactively express our self in these channels such as our actions, our participation, and our attitudes towards opposition. More imagination would make no sense, so let's halt our discussion here. As a conclusion, we keep one thing in mind that every problem or difficulty directs us towards solutions by pointing out our weaknesses and gaps.

23. Divergent Fields

Not all sections, not all parts of our society and our nation are similar. There exists a lot of diversity in some peculiar cases that demand special acknowledgement and attention. Till now we have discussed very generally. Now we can discuss regarding some specific and unique issues.


Would our model intervention be implemented in the same way in urban slums or would it require a lot of individualization? Urban slums are so complicated, so compact, so divergent and problematic social structures. They are less conducive for an intervention. While working there, we would require to struggle even for making people spend some time with us, creating spaces and opportunities for our work. This is because, in urban slums, communities are likely to be in the process of disintegration or disorganization, so social relations can be weak and less cohesive. So any work of unification and organization becomes difficult. How can we work in this situation? Every stage involved in intervention- rapport and relations building, gaining confidence, initiating some kind of activity and bringing people together, all these would be slow. There would be lots of threatening factors or opposing agents also. So we would be ready to spend more time and energy there.

In case of slums, we should remember that what we see and face in slums is like an iceberg, that is to say, the visible part of complicated social realities and maladjustments. So we can not work there alone effectively but have to work on the root causes which lies in our social structure and economic life. This reiterates the need to work with the social systems so as to make greater impacts. Here it may be relevant to say that most of social problems can not be dealt in isolation. They are inter- linked and so deeply rooted. So we have to work with the entire system and try to repair basic faults such as inequality, wrong method of 'development'. Then only we can seek for a balanced intervention with some output. Let's move to another peculiar group of social conditions.


Kashmir is unique in so many ways ! Politically, socially, economically it is different from the rest of the nation. Working there would require a lot of individualization and adaptation, so as to adjust with that environment and make some impacts. There would come up severe difficulties such negative bias on the part of the local people, communication gaps, logistical problems, terrorism and alienation. We should be prepared for all this. We should show positivism and creativity to concentrate on most acceptable, positive attributes and work constructively without any depression and negative response.

Conditions of North East are also different than rest of the nation and somewhat similar to Kashmir. We can identify identity crisis in this unique part of the nation. Identity crisis is basically political and is originated in pursuit of equality and due share. So would not our method based on power equality be applicable and practical there? Also we see political forces so strongly opposing development, so we would need much more strength to fight it and which is so difficult due to heterogeneous and divergent social structures in these areas, particularly the north east. Communication problems, earlier negative impressions, physical and social distances and alienation, insecurity and violence, continuous threat of insurgency and influx of illegal Bangladeshis are some indications of challenging work situation... Thus these areas demand more efforts, more dedication and sacrifice on the part of our better intervention. We would then anticipate all such factors and start planning for that.

24. Epilogue

Here we close this discussion for now. There are so many questions unanswered, many points need to be clarified. Hence your additions are vital. Your contribution would make this process going further places.

The repetition in this discussion is regretted, the writer wants to apologize you for imposition of thoughts, also in case something has hurt you, something which you felt threatening. Such writing is mere one way, so incomplete. You can complete this, make it more meaningful by giving your guidance and inputs and continue the discussion.

Thanks a lot.

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